Podcast Episode #6 - with Christopher O’Reilly
Christopher O’Reilly
Founder & Therapist
SHOW NOTES
What is Narcissism— The Business Cost— And How To Navigate Narcissism in Leadership
Show Notes
In this conversation, Christopher O'Reilly, a psychologist with extensive experience in trauma and counseling, discusses the complexities of narcissism in leadership. He explores the characteristics of narcissistic behavior, the impact on relationships, and the importance of self-awareness for leaders. The dialogue emphasizes the need for effective communication, feedback, and strategies to regain agency in unhealthy work environments. O'Reilly shares insights on how to navigate the challenges of working with narcissistic leaders and the significance of fostering a culture of openness and honesty in organizations.
Key Themes Covered:
Narcissism is often misused in everyday language.
True narcissistic personality disorder involves a lack of empathy and healthy relationships.
Trauma history often contributes to narcissistic behaviors.
Narcissistic leaders may lack self-awareness and interest in others' perspectives.
Feedback is crucial for leaders to understand their impact.
Creating space for honest feedback can improve team dynamics.
Vulnerability is a strength in leadership, not a weakness.
People working with narcissists often lose their voice and agency.
Effective communication strategies can help express concerns to leaders.
Cultivating a culture of feedback is essential for organizational health.
TRANSCRIPT
Roger (00:35)
welcome to the No More Carbon Copies podcast. Excited today to have Christopher O'Reilly joining us today. And Christopher is a psychologist and has extensive experience in trauma and counseling and counseling centers. one thing I want to say about Christopher is he just
in the past year has launched his own independent counseling center Excited to hear more about that, congratulations on that. And before we jump in, tell a little bit about your background, the things that kind of drive you to do the work that you do.
Christopher O'Reilly (01:02)
Thank you.
Yeah, no, thank you so much for having me, Roger. Yeah, so I am trained and licensed as a as a clinician, as a therapist, and I have worked primarily in residential addiction and trauma treatment. I've worked at two very well known high class treatment centers that, you know, help different people for different reasons when it comes to addiction and trauma. Again, my
Training is clinical, but I would say I spent the bulk of my time in leadership. working as a therapist and then becoming a supervisor, director, and just finding myself more focused on, you know, or should I just say like also focused on like the development of treatment programs, you know, being part of the executive team to kind of help guide the treatment. So.
I really am passionate about leadership. I like working with leaders and, you know, as a clinician. that's a real big passion of mine.
Roger (02:08)
Well, that's great because that's exactly what brought us to this conversation is your passion for leadership So let's jump in So today we are going to talk about narcissism. And this conversation comes from experiences both you and I have had in working with people.
and both personally but also working with clients who are who are talking about about narcissism and and so real quick As we jump into this Narcissism is a term that's used a lot ⁓ it's used to talk about my boss is a narcissist or I work with narcissists or Or whatever and so I think it's important to kind of think about as we jump into this. There's a clinical side of it. There's like a
Christopher O'Reilly (02:37)
Good luck.
Roger (02:49)
like what it really is, but then there's also some of these dynamics that we that we talk about. So what's that? What's narcissism?
Christopher O'Reilly (02:56)
Yeah, you know, and I like that you kind of shared what you just said, because I do think it's a term that's thrown around loosely. can, you know, there's a whole spectrum, right? It's maybe a way to kind of describe someone that seems like they're pretty into themselves and they have a high sense of self-importance. But I mean, it truly can be, it is a mental health disorder that characterizes somebody who has a really strong sense of self-importance.
But probably more importantly, it characterizes somebody who has a very difficult time kind of, you know, being aware and interested in what is happening for other people around them. someone that truly has a narcissistic personality disorder has a very difficult time being in a healthy relationship. And that could be personally or professionally. And when I say a healthy relationship,
that tends to be a relationship that there's a give and take. There's a benefit for both. And for, you know, it could be a whole host of reasons that someone gets to a point where that's very, very difficult for them to do, you know, and, you know, obviously there can be help and treatment for that, but yes, it is a broad spectrum, but it, tends to characterize somebody that has, you know, blinders on, so to speak, right? Somebody who has a hard time.
understanding the impact they have on others and maybe, kind of sees things from their perspective and their perspective only.
Roger (04:27)
that's interesting. I love the idea of trouble being aware and trouble with a give and take in a relationship, a mutuality to relationship. So before we jump into the leadership side of it, I think we need to kind of look at it from the narcissist perspective and then also from the perspective of the people who work with or work alongside or lead alongside someone who they think might
might have that trouble with the give and take. So what are some of the common, behaviors or what are some of the life history or the past that's common? Again, this is not necessarily every individual, but I'd love for you to be able to share a little bit about what is the background of someone who really is clinically a narcissist?
Christopher O'Reilly (05:12)
Yeah, I would say it tends to have a lot to do with there's there's typically, a trauma history. You know, they might be somebody that grew up in a highly dysfunctional home, maybe where there was like, you know, abuse or neglect or maybe addiction. And in those severe circumstances and stressful environments, you know, they might start to lose
trust and feel like they can only rely on themselves. And it's almost like when somebody grows up in a really dysfunctional stressful environment, they're going to develop a strategy to navigate that. And it can get to a point where it's really, really difficult for them to again, have trust or to see other person's perspectives because they're truly, you know, trying to figure out a way to get through. then that doesn't necessarily
equate to healthy relationships ⁓ as an adult, and again, personally or professionally. And so Roger, when you kind of describe, you know, what does that really look like? It's almost like an individual who has their own perspective on something. And I think a lot of times if it's true narcissism, they will do whatever it takes to accomplish their goals. And that might be
you know, manipulative in nature. It also might be very, very intense in the sense of just like, you know, there's no democracy, right? There's no teamwork necessarily. It's like, I'm going to tell you how this needs to go and everyone needs to follow suit.
Roger (06:47)
Yeah, yeah. Everyone needs to follow suit. That's a common thing that I think I hear from folks I work with, that their common complaint is they don't have a seat at the table. Even though they have a seat at table, maybe from an organizational leadership perspective, they have a title, they have whatever, but the folks that they're,
leader they're working with they're like hey, they don't they don't allow me to play that role and So so let's go down kind of two paths one is let's understand let's understand the narcissist and then I want to pivot and have a conversation for those who Work with someone who has tendencies towards that What are some of the things they they do
that cause them not to manage themselves very well in that relationship? And what are some of the things that they can do to take some steps forward? So first of all, kind of understanding the behaviors. And you've explained this a little bit, but there's no democracy, there's no give and take. What other kind of behaviors do you see in leaders who have that? Because I know you have broad experience in that.
Christopher O'Reilly (07:50)
Yeah.
Sure. You know, another characteristic I would describe, Roger, is, and again, this could be someone that truly has a diagnosis in this area, like meaning a true mental health disorder or someone that kind of fits into this category. Again, you can use this term loosely versus somebody who's really, really struggles with this. But there's very little interest
or even self-awareness as to how they are perceived by others. So it might be one of these things where you have a leader that is really intense in the way that we're describing it. They're in the room. Everyone is, you know, showing that person what they believe he wants to see or what she wants to see. The second that leader leaves the room, everyone, you know,
might be rolling their eyes or just like throwing their hands up in frustration. you know, I got to say, Roger, seeing that myself professionally, like that's my biggest fear as a leader is to have a team that thinks one thing of me, but nobody mentions it or I'm not aware of it. Like to me, that seems like the worst case scenario. But I think for a lot of leaders that kind of have more narcissistic tendencies, they're not.
tapped into or aware of how they're perceived by others, some of the stuff we're talking about, like, you know, either a tyrant or my way or the highway, or they're not truly considering other people's perspective. also think leaders that have narcissistic tendencies, they don't tap into and utilize the strength and the expertise of the leaders around the table. If they have an executive team,
They're kind of the smartest person in the room and they don't really leverage the strength of the group, which is a real, I think one of the major downfalls, quite honestly.
Roger (09:41)
Yeah. so the self-awareness piece, which is a it's just an interesting piece because I would argue that that most people don't see themselves accurately. So self-awareness is something that everyone needs to struggle with. There's a particular, I think, difficulty for someone who has these tendencies, maybe these trauma, maybe this trauma, maybe this lack of ability to do a give and take. They're always the smartest person in the room. There's a little bit more of a a a block there.
But one of the things that I would say gives us a little bit of compassion for that person is that, yeah, we struggle with that too. We don't see ourselves accurately either. And so there's a little bit of sense of like, how do you have compassion for a person in that situation? And then what allows someone, this would be interesting question for you to dive into is, is what allows someone to come to the place where they're willing and open to hear the perspective of the people around them.
Christopher O'Reilly (10:14)
Yeah.
Yeah, you know, I think there's a practice that I wish all leadership teams, leaned into, which is creating space to give each other feedback. And I think, you know, it's been really a blessing to work on leadership teams in the mental health space, because we like to practice what we preach. Right. So, you know, we don't just kind of get into the work, meaning like, you know,
the administrative and leadership stuff, like we create space to talk about how we're feeling, how we're doing as a team, giving each other honest feedback. We build it into the structure. And so in my experience, if that's not part of the culture, especially with a leader that has more narcissistic tendencies, I think that the best way to kind of see if you can ⁓ partner with that individual, again, being like,
healthier dynamic is to really lean into that. And you might not want to like do it in front of a group like the team, but just pulling that person aside and just being honest about, hey, I'm having feelings about this. I don't know if you recognize this, but just kind of approaching with honesty in a way that hopefully, you know, they might be able to hear and consider and shift. But, know,
At least you can try to take that angle and try and be honest about it.
Roger (11:59)
Yeah. Yeah. Feedback is a big, I'd say overused term, underutilized in its gifting in most organizations. Feedbacks often feared, often ⁓ unwelcome, often poorly timed, all those things. I think the awareness, like what earns you the right
to give someone feedback or for someone to give you feedback is a big question. Because I think a lot of people over rely on formal authority and not on earning the right or earning the relational capital to speak truth or welcome truth. So I wanna
Christopher O'Reilly (12:34)
Yeah, sure.
Roger (12:39)
talk little bit more about self-awareness. And many people, but including Brene Brown, talk about how self-awareness is the key for leadership transformation. just wondering your thoughts on how have you seen self-awareness be something that's cultivated, what tools have you used, have you found to be?
to be effective in working with leaders.
Christopher O'Reilly (12:58)
Yeah, you know, if, cause I've done some retreat style work with leadership teams. And I think when you can really get buy-in from the team as a whole, and maybe even the leader of that team to kind of. Implement practices that support and nurture self-awareness that can be really key. So, you know, as much as we were talking earlier about, if you have a leader that
doesn't seem to have a whole lot of self-awareness, nor is interested in it to like try and give that, from the bottom up. I think when you have a leader that cultivates that and even leads by example, you know, obviously leaders sometimes have directives and they have initiatives that they have to push forward in strategic planning, but it's like,
How's everyone doing with it? What ideas do you have? I just love when leaders really create space and really want to elicit feedback, maybe about what they're doing as a team, but even one-on-one about, hey, how's my leadership style landing with you? What works, what doesn't? Is there anything that you feel uncomfortable you're holding back?
quite honestly, Roger, and not everyone has to be a therapist to do this, but sometimes supervision, these kind of conversations, I mean, they kind of ride the line a little bit of like, like a level of honesty that you might in a therapeutic setting, it's like, this is how this makes me feel, these are my thoughts around this, are you open to constructive feedback, but just really having a conversation that has some depth to it.
because all of that matters. I think it really does. It helps to get buy-in from your team when the team feels that you truly care about where they're at, what they're thinking, what they're feeling. It gets buy-in in a way that you can't without that kind of culture.
Roger (14:40)
Yeah.
Yeah, my guess is that the healthiest leaders, leader who buys into that, they're like, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I want that. For the person with the blind spot, for the narcissist who is in that executive seat, who doesn't welcome that, not seeing that perspective. I don't know if this is speculation, but
I want to spend a little bit of time on thinking about what is the fear? What's the block? What's the thing that an executive from seeing that as an advantage, from seeing that as a way of really providing leadership and leading the organization effectively? They clearly don't agree with that or don't see that. What are some of the things that you see as patterns that keep a leader from
believing that.
Christopher O'Reilly (15:47)
Yeah,
yeah. No, that's a great question, Roger, because I mean, if it's truly a personality disorder, I would say it's rooted in childhood. it's an, maladaptive coping strategy, how they kind of present to the world. I mean, that to me is a very different thing than someone that just has more tendencies but, I think some leaders are looking more for
operators and people to execute or push out their ideas and their plans. they don't look at it from I'm going to pull from the strength and wisdom of all these people. They truly just think that they have a plan. They know best and they need, you know, operators to just kind of push it out. And,
I guess maybe that could come from past experiences where things didn't go well from a team approach or they just, they don't trust others. mean, cause there's definitely a control aspect in that. it's like, if I control all the decisions, then things will go smoothly to sort of really let others get involved in the leadership aspect they see as some sort of risk.
And at the end of the day, probably don't trust the capability or the team that they're working with. There has to be some trust issues there, I would think.
Roger (17:10)
Yeah.
Yeah, I wonder also whether there's a, where there is some modeling of other leaders where I think, ⁓ a successful leader, an executive, this is the way they behave. So they're modeling something that they think is appropriate, even if it's not clinical. It's just they say, ⁓ I'm the boss. I need to be the one with the ideas or whatever.
The other one, I wonder if you think about this, is the idea of fear. The fear of opening up to other people's perspective is the fear of what if they think I am not the leader I'm supposed to be because I'm masking.
Christopher O'Reilly (17:44)
Yeah, 100%.
Yeah, I think that's very true. it's they might, you're absolutely right. Like they might believe that not having all the answers is a sign of weakness or vulnerability, you know, others need them to be that. And again, you mentioned Brene Brown, I really appreciate her work because she highlights that vulnerability is so important
I mean, it's truly a strength and there's power in the team and there's power in connection. I think the research shows it's a much more effective strategy. Yeah.
Roger (18:20)
Yeah.
Yeah, I connect that to one of my favorite books is The Gift of Being Yourself by David Benner. David talks about how we, since we don't see ourselves accurately, we need to see ourselves through the eyes of the people who work with us, who love us, who care for us, which is such an uncommon approach, I think, to feedback. But there's that sense that
I think leaders who lack self-awareness are trying to be good at everything. They're trying to be good at a broad spectrum of things. They don't necessarily see the uniqueness that they bring to the table. And so they're overperforming. They're trying to take more responsibility rather than being interdependent with the other folks. And it's this idea of like you don't see yourself accurately.
you're performing in ways that are actually counterproductive. ⁓
Christopher O'Reilly (19:12)
Yeah.
I think the other part of what feels counterproductive in the scenario you just described, that type of leader Roger is, it doesn't foster growth in the people on your team. They're not tasked to problem solve I think sometimes teams under that type of leader, don't, they're not motivated to really
dig into their potential I don't know, just find that leaders like that, the teams underneath are not high functioning. And granted, I mean, I do think leaders like that might put a lot of pressure and they could function that way, but in those scenarios, there tends to be a lot of high turnover.
Roger (19:56)
Yeah, we could talk longer about the narcissist, I want to pivot to talk about the people who work with the narcissist. So because I think that it's more common for the person who works with the narcissist to come and seek help than it is for the narcissist to go, hey, I'm a narcissist. I need help. You know, it's most of the time it's the people that go like, I really am struggling.
Christopher O'Reilly (20:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
He
Roger (20:21)
with how to work in this environment. so let's talk about an unhealthy response. What are some of the coping or what are some of the things that you see that you would say about people who work with a narcissist that puts them in an unproductive stance because you're saying, these things are dysfunctional, maybe unproductive, there's high turnover. So what are those behaviors that you see
that you would say, let's pay attention to these behaviors for people not really being the leader they could be because they're being kind of shut down or allowing them to be shut down by someone who maybe has that tendency.
Christopher O'Reilly (20:53)
He he.
Sure, I think people that are on those types of teams or have a boss or leader like that, they come to believe that the only thing they can do is agree and follow suit. They tend to lose their voice, they tend to allow their boundaries to be crossed, they tend to pretend that they're in on
things that they're okay with it. I would say most leaders that have narcissistic qualities, they tend to have a lot of people on their team that just shake their head yes when internally they're thinking no. And people can tolerate that kind of work environment for some time, but I definitely think it takes a major toll on them personally and professionally.
They kind of get into this place where they believe they have to just pretend to be on board and pretend to be okay. And basically it's just a lot of unhealthy relationship dynamics. They feel they need to tell their boss what they want to hear rather than what they're truly thinking and feeling. And quite honestly, that might be necessary to stay employed in that team but that's where I think the high turnover comes into play because
Some people can only tolerate that for so long or they get burned out and they need to move on to something that hopefully is healthier.
Roger (22:21)
Yeah. Yeah. I find it curious a lot of the words you use there were were a little bit more passive ⁓ allowing, ⁓ you know, and so there's a sense of of the loss of agency the loss of being willing to say, ⁓ no, I have an opinion. I have a thought I'm capable of being.
Christopher O'Reilly (22:29)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Roger (22:42)
These things are not okay. But that loss of agency, would you say it comes from fear or what are going to be the consequences if I speak up? Is that what you're
Christopher O'Reilly (22:54)
Yeah. Yeah,
I think so. And, you know, that fear could come in a couple of different forms. Number one, they might maybe early on attempt to express their truth and their opinion, sharing their experience, their, know, the things that they know and either directly or indirectly get shut down. And if you have that experience a couple of times, you're to learn pretty quickly that like
Well, that's fruitless. Like, that's not helpful. The other thing I was thinking is like they might just kind of see it in the team. So you imagine someone joining this team. Everyone presents as motivated and interested. The second the leader walks out, everyone's got a different energy. And so, you know, trying to figure that out, they're like, OK, we have to act a certain way in front of this person. But then when they leave, everyone's talking this way. And so
It's again, it's almost like when I described earlier how kids that are growing up in unhealthy environments develop a strategy on how to navigate it and survive it. I think that same concept rings true when it comes to teams and leadership. And I'd say a lot of people know what it's like to be in an unhealthy work environment. And I guess the question is, are you going to play the game or are you going to try and,
be true to yourself and shift it? Or do you have to go and find an environment, a work culture that is healthier for you?
Roger (24:24)
Yeah, yeah. I've been playing around with this, this idea of, waking up I tend to, I see a lot of lot of folks who are in survival mode. And so they're in survival and they don't necessarily see another option or they don't allow themselves to see another option. they kind of go like, hey, I've got to, I've got to be here. I've got, I don't, I don't have another place to go. And so that survival kicks in and they're,
And they got a sleepwalk ⁓ and they dumb themselves down in a sense and stop being, you know, I would say being the leader they could be because they're because they're in survival mode. And that's common whether you work with a narcissist or not. But I do think it's specifically for those folks is they're trying to go, hey, do I have to stay here? Do I need to stay here? This is this is really counter productive or.
or it's sucking the life out of me, whatever, but aren't necessarily don't have a strategy to move on. Thoughts about that?
Christopher O'Reilly (25:18)
No, I fully agree. and I think that that's common for people, you know, I don't know if there's any work environments that are, you know, a hundred percent healthier, you know, great. And I do think it's, you know, people have to weigh the pros and cons of certain environments, but it definitely, if it's really hard because of the dysfunction or just the health, unhealth of the
work culture. You know, I do understand it requires courage and believing that there's something, different or better out there. But, some people tolerate dysfunction better than others. mean, again, the clinician in me, the mental health professional thinks, some people who grew up in dysfunctional homes, they feel quite at home and in a dysfunctional organization. You know, it's what they know and it's what, quite honestly, they're
Roger (26:06)
Yeah.
Christopher O'Reilly (26:12)
comfortable with even though it's not healthy, but they can tolerate it.
Roger (26:16)
yeah. Think about family systems. There's a great book called Failure of Nerve, which is about kind of how family systems, translate into human organizations. I found it fascinating because I'm not, you know, a clinical, I don't have that background. And so having some insight about how organizations function and how just how
people are comfortable in dysfunction is a fascinating, it's a fascinating thing to me how they cross over. ⁓ So, I think you and I both come to perspective, we have some compassion, we're dealing with humans who are real people. so when we think about like, what can we encourage, this isn't like kind of a doom and gloom kind of thing of like you just accept. So,
Christopher O'Reilly (26:42)
Yeah. Yep.
No.
Roger (26:59)
What are some of the things that strategies or some of the things that we can offer to folks to say, hey, let's regain some agency. Let's try some things. What have you found to be helpful? Obviously leaving and going is one thing, but you still take who you are to that. So if you tolerated something here, you're going to tolerate it here. So what are some of the strategies that you think that you've seen your clients use or you've encouraged people to do that makes it more effective?
Christopher O'Reilly (27:09)
Yes.
Exactly.
No, I love that question because I do. I do agree with you. You know, the answer is not always to leave and wherever you go, there you are as far as like moving from organization to organization. You know, I think what I would encourage folks is seek some coaching, seek some support, seek some therapy, because sometimes these struggles are related more to like who you are and what you've been through than maybe even the organization itself. And so
I think sometimes people don't feel that they can be honest with their supervisor, the leaders within the company. And I strongly encourage people to speak up and to, be more honest and trust the way that plays out. And I also am a fan of coaching people on how to express themselves in a way that tends to be unarguable. You know, you can say what you need to say, but
how you say it is super important. you know, if somebody kind of goes into their boss's office and says, you're doing all these things wrong and it's not fair, that's not going to land as well as if they said, hey, I'm having some struggles and from my perspective, or this is how I feel. If you can take some ownership in your feedback, I think it lands with people better. And there's an art to expressing what you're thinking and feeling and what you need.
and it can land better than others. So getting some coaching or support around how to do that can be really helpful. Maybe even rehearsing with some people that you trust, but ultimately staying quiet and just tolerating obviously doesn't work really well. And sometimes you you'll be surprised by how receptive the people are. You know, I learned something. I was in a in a on a team for a long time. My first role as a leader was within a
world-class addiction treatment center. I kind of noticed that, everyone, different people had different boundaries and the organization would let you work yourself way too much, but they would also respect if you set boundaries and had a decent personal and professional balance. And what the key factor in that was, what was the person willing to tolerate?
and also would they speak up and set those boundaries? So I really do believe that we do have agency and that we do need to lean into this and speak up for ourselves, speak up for the health of the culture and the organization and make an impact in that way. You you might not just make your situation better, but it could have a positive impact on the entire system, which is really cool. Yeah.
Roger (30:03)
Yeah, yeah,
yeah. I actually was just having a conversation with a client today and the conversation was about how do have this hard conversation with someone and and the instinct was to go in and and to kind of address the directly address the issue. And and so we had a conversation about how effective is that usually and how how much more effective might it be if you go, hey,
Here's my perspective about this. Now, I can take agency to say what I need or what I want, but sometimes I find that it's about the lack of clarity in terms of being able to say, here's the expectation. And here's where, you you've asked me to do this, but I also noticed this, those two things seem to be in contrast. Can you help me better understand your expectations? Because I want to,
Christopher O'Reilly (30:52)
Yes.
Roger (30:55)
work well with you. I want to be your partner and can you help me with that? Is a way of kind of having a conversation about your needs that kind of speak to the inconsistency or the lack of here's what you said you want me to do, but here's how I'm being treated. So I really like that idea of setting up the conversation where it's not a attack, but it's a
Christopher O'Reilly (31:13)
Yeah.
Roger (31:18)
you know, coming to it with a personal vulnerability. What are the thoughts? What are the other thoughts about, how should a leader address picking up of agency after they've not exhibited that?
Christopher O'Reilly (31:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, first of all, Roger, I love I love what you just said, because, there's there's a lot of ways messages can come across from a leader. And it's like they're saying one thing and they're doing another or they're saying this, but it feels like this. And I think that would be a great strategy. Be like, hey, this feels a bit confusing. I'm not clear.
I need to kind of talk it through and better understand. think that looking for clarity and really just getting clear whether it's about what are the expectations of me or what are you really trying to communicate? Because it feels clunky and unclear. I love that. The other thing I would encourage, and this might seem small or silly, but I'm a big fan of what I like to call the conversation before the conversation.
You know, if you were my boss and we're busy trying to, execute this plan or run this company, I might say to you, Roger, hey, I'm struggling and I need to have a hard conversation with you. Do you have time for that now? Can we schedule time a little bit later? Because I think sometimes when you just kind of. Jump into a conversation.
If the person, your boss or whoever it is, isn't in a place to really have that conversation, that could work against you in so many ways. And because I've had multiple experiences with that where it's like, no, now is not a good time. Actually, is there anybody else that needs to be in this conversation? Can we wait until we wrap up things in the first quarter before we have that? But when both people are
in a good space with enough time and a good mindset, the conversations can go much more productively.
Roger (33:18)
Yeah, that's a that's good wisdom of not not jumping in, kind of spur the moment, but allowing preparing someone for a conversation is a is respectful and it honors them. That's I think that's that's good. I think in my in my experience, the the the lack of clarity or the willingness to live without clarity.
Christopher O'Reilly (33:27)
That's right.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Roger (33:43)
is
one of those things I think that sabotages most leaders or most people who are working with, you know, in a leadership team, making assumptions, not clarifying expectations, not clarifying the things that the agreements you have with each other. so I think there's a tendency when we're working with strong personalities to do that more and more.
to kind of assume a lot of stuff, threatened, and then not really act like the leader that we're hired to be, the role we're hired to play. And I want to tie that into the idea that we can get into that situation because we really don't see ourselves acting in that way. And so, you know, I've had experiences in my life where
I've worked, I've in a sense, opened my eyes after a period of time and gone, oh my goodness, like I'm at a place I didn't think I would be. It usually happens because of a good piece of insight or feedback that comes from outside of my perspective. And the idea that we don't see ourselves accurate, we need other people to kind of feed into our self-perception.
So again, so coming back to the idea of how does this conversation benefit people who are working with a narcissist if someone was going to take an inventory and go like, hey, here's some things I need to think about on a regular basis what is some of those recommendations on what those questions should look like to be more self-aware?
Christopher O'Reilly (35:16)
No, I love that. Yeah. it's interesting because, leaders need to lead and hopefully their expertise, their wisdom, maybe other fact, key factors kind of put them in that position. But I think, do I know where my team's at truly? how am I doing between, asking them to be operators, but also
eliciting their feedback because I know for me it's like, gosh, I'm perfectly fine filling my team or just being around people that are smarter than me in other ways. And I need that. My ego can handle it. I love it because it's like that creates a really robust team. so,
I think it's important for leaders to make sure they have a solid understanding, a realistic understanding of how they're being perceived by their team. are they eliciting feedback? Are they capitalizing on the strengths and expertise of their team members? I think that's a really big one. And are they truly in a place where their team can give them honest feedback? I mean, that's even a great question. I mean, imagine sitting down, if you were the leader of a team, you'd like
you know, people in your executive team. How honest do you feel you can be with me?
Roger (36:30)
Yeah. Yeah.
Christopher O'Reilly (36:31)
Like
truly, on a scale from one to 10, how honest can you be? And if they say a five, it's like, well, what keeps you from feeling like you can be honest with me? I mean, those are amazing conversations because that gives, it's a ton of benefit to me because I get a better sense of what my blind spots are.
Roger (36:53)
Yeah, I think the discipline of of of regularly asking those questions. So I'd say one behavior then is regularly going to the people that work for you or work around you and having a conversation about, tell me, tell me something I don't know. Something tell me, tell me something I need to know. ⁓ Tell me, tell me some things
Christopher O'Reilly (37:13)
Yes.
Roger (37:15)
that you think I may not know about myself that would really help me be better ⁓ and allowing them to take that. So if a leader's not doing that, I would say that's one of things that you recommend. Hey, go and have those conversations and do that right.
Christopher O'Reilly (37:19)
Yes. Yeah.
Yes.
And you can do it formally or informally. I I've worked in organizations where we made that a part of, you know, annual review process. I mean, that's not frequent enough, in my opinion. I definitely might do it quarterly with key people. And, the other thing, Roger, it's like, have it infiltrate the organization. you have
the leader and the leadership team, it happens there, but then the leadership team can do a similar process with their team. I think an organization that has some of the boots on the ground, in the the trenches, like those people know things and have the details that the top leadership need to know about,
day-to-day operations and what's happening, also just creating a culture where constructive feedback is truly welcomed. I mean, that's really key.
Roger (38:28)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. you know, the the tendency I I see a lot in organizations is is we want to have a we want to have a either feedback culture or leadership culture, whatever. We want to start with people at the lower parts of the organization. I want them to be comfortable with it without, it coming from from people, the humility of people in the executive seats also doing that. So my encouragement always is like is you've got to you've got to start
you got to exhibit that at the top of the organization. Or if you want to put it upside organization, you got to, you got to do it at the foundational piece, which is the executive. And then, and allow that to, to, to flow up to the rest of the organization. But it is hard, is a discipline. It has to be, it's not something that, that people get naturally. And one of the things that, that I think is, is true about executives is executives get the least amount of feedback of people in the organization.
because of the positional authority, the busyness, the lack of people in authority, being in the same room with them. so that idea of actually going and seeking and giving the space for that ⁓ is a very simple thing, hard thing, but a very simple thing. And I would say like, if you're doing that,
then you're most likely going to identify the things behaviors that a narcissist ⁓ might exhibit And I do think there's the idea of the agency, of taking agency over the feedback you get. ⁓
Christopher O'Reilly (39:42)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. Roger, ⁓ an organization that does not have that structure in place in any way, or form, even if the leadership is not narcissistic or even has those tendencies, I still get nervous about, you know, frontline staff or are people that again are several removed, just feeling like the leadership is out of touch. They don't know what they're doing. They don't know what we're dealing with. Like it can create a culture that
just not healthy and it affects obviously the product or the service in a deep way. Yeah. Yeah.
Roger (40:25)
Yeah, yeah, that's good. A lot more we could talk about, I'm sure,
But this has been great and appreciate just for your willingness to jump on here and have this conversation. And I will have to think about some other topics that we can jump on and talk about.
Christopher O'Reilly (40:39)
Sure.
Yeah.
Roger (40:40)
⁓
But thanks and I wish you all the best. Congratulations on starting your practice. ⁓ Remedy, counseling and wellness in Franklin, Tennessee. ⁓ So thank you, Christopher. Blessings on you and all your work.
Christopher O'Reilly (40:46)
Thank you.