Podcast Episode #4 - Vince Burens
Vince Burens
COO
SHOW NOTES
🎙️ A New Swing for a New Season of Leadership
In this episode, Roger sits down with longtime friend and seasoned executive Vince Burens to explore the journey of leadership including that moment every leader eventually faces: the realization that their old “swing” no longer produces the results it once did.
Vince shares about being identified early as a high-achieving leader, the insecurities that shaped his early career, and the painful but essential transition from achievement-driven leadership to wisdom-driven leadership.
Together, Roger and Vince discuss:
Why early success can mask blind spots that catch up later
The role of trusted voices who hold up “true mirrors”
How self-sabotage shows up in even the most capable leaders
The freedom that comes from redefining the scoreboard
How your next season of leadership requires a new swing
This conversation offers clarity, honesty, encouragement, and a roadmap for leaders ready to grow beyond performance and into deeper impact.
TRANSCRIPT
Roger (00:35)
All right, welcome to the podcast today. privilege of having a long time life friend of mine, Vince Buren's. Excited to have you Vince and glad you could spend the time with us. So thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to do this.
Vince Burens (00:49)
⁓ it's super fun to do it, Rog So I'm glad to with you today.
Roger (00:52)
Well,
hopefully the first of many, you we're just getting into this podcast scene. And so I'm learning as I go. ⁓ I really want this, this to be a conversational. so real quick, Vince, you are.
the COO of a pretty interesting organization. What do you want people to know about you before you jump into this conversation?
Vince Burens (01:12)
Well, I mean, more than anything, I love my wife of 27 years and I have two amazing daughters and I'm more blessed than I could ever imagine with those things. As you know quite well, I'm quite proud of being second generation Italian and that probably shapes my life and personality more than I even know. So, know, all of that and I'm a lifelong Pittsburgher.
So I do. So yes, I do like the Steelers. That's what everybody always says. It's like, I don't know, do fish like water? Of course. So, I mean, you can't grow up here and not not love it. Those are probably primary. And to your point, I worked in the nonprofit world for most of my career in working for a college ministry, started started on campus and moved my way up into the C-suite and ultimately president and CEO for about a little over seven years.
Roger (01:33)
Yeah. Yes, guys. Yeah.
Vince Burens (02:02)
And I'm now a COO in a for-profit consulting firm that only works with nonprofits. So ⁓ helps them with strategic planning and fundraising initiatives.
Roger (02:14)
we've been friends for a long time and I've had the privilege of walking through life with you in many different kind of seasons and experiences and so have a perspective on how you've led but let's start with just the conversation of.
When you're coming out, kind of starting your career, you were a person who is not atypical in terms of, I would say, high achieving leaders or high impact leaders, in that you were identified as a leader really early. And you were asked into leadership while you were in college. You stepped into leadership, kind of kept on getting offered, begged to take on more leadership at a young age. So I'm curious.
Like how do you reflect on what was your perspective of leadership and what you thought leadership development was, what you thought about leadership at that time, and then how has that evolved as you've actually taken on and led at significant levels? I'd love to hear you kind of talk a little bit about how has that perspective of leadership evolved over that journey.
Vince Burens (03:20)
Yeah. Well, yeah, I was given live ammo to play with when I was young, when it comes from a leadership journey. you know, to a certain degree, I'm very grateful for that. And to another degree, like, it's kind of a miracle I didn't completely metaphorically and probably literally blow my hand off at some point. But ⁓
Roger (03:40)
It's
a great metaphor.
Vince Burens (03:41)
Yeah,
and I think part of it is strength of personality, right? So I think there's a sort of demographic of, to your point, I've done a ton of all the personality tests pretty much. And, you know, so if you're into the Enneagram world, I'm an Enneagram three, so I'm a high achieving performative personality type. And so I think you look at strength of personality,
Roger (03:53)
Course you
Vince Burens (04:05)
with an achieving personality type and very quickly people say, we could put him in charge of that and it's gonna go somewhere, right? And so I think people saw that in me really at a young age. I was captain on my high school soccer team, in leadership in a variety of different things in college fraternity. And I was part of the college ministry ended up working for which is where you and I met along the way. So, yeah, lots of people.
could see those kinds of things in me. And so I think they very quickly, you they're sort of an archetype of leadership, which I don't always think is great, by the way. But there is that like strong personality, achieving, let's give it to him, he'll do something with it, you know, as far as, yeah, he won't drop it, he might screw it, he might totally blow it, but he's not, he's gonna do something. ⁓ Yeah, and so I think that was from the beginning.
Roger (04:52)
He won't drop it. Yeah. He's going to own it. Yeah.
Vince Burens (05:03)
I think looking back on it, yeah, you're right. I happened to be in a place. So I thought when I graduated, I'm a first generation college student. My cousin was a lawyer in the small town I grew up in. pretty much the thinking was, is going to go to college. He's going to go to law school. He's going to work at his cousin's law firm. And that's where he'll be for the rest of his life. And that's what I thought, too. I was very pleased with that idea. When I was younger,
Roger (05:22)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Vince Burens (05:28)
And people called out different gifts in me, you being one, that kind of in abilities that they said, hey, maybe you should consider this. You're good with young people. You're good at coaching. You're good at leading systems and strategies. Maybe give these things a try, which turned quickly from me deferring law school to working in the nonprofit world, first with high school kids and then on college campuses and then within an organization.
Roger (05:53)
Yeah, I think it's interesting. You talk about strength of personality, won't drop it. There's something about about followership. Like, how do you did you think of yourself in a way that other people?
naturally followed you? Is that something that you naturally thought of or as a leader? Or is that something people had to go like, hey, do you know that? Do you know that those people follow you? Do you know that you're catalytic in that way?
Vince Burens (06:20)
You know, it's funny, one of my, executive coach that I had for a season always used to say the easiest definition of leadership is are people following you, right? Like if nobody's following you, you're not a leader. You might be a variety of other things, but you're not a leader if nobody follows you. I don't know that I ever thought about it that succinctly. But, but I've always been very team oriented. I'm not an individualist. So I don't, I don't take, I look at my friends who run marathons and
Roger (06:28)
Yeah. That's it.
Hahaha
Vince Burens (06:47)
you know, do a variety of my current CEO is that I work for is he's run 71 marathons. He just run the new ran in New York City marathon this past weekend with his daughter, which I totally admire. And I recognize like that's not me. Like I'm not I'm not individualistically oriented enough to go do that. I love doing as you know, we have a shared passion for soccer. Like I love I love a team element. And I think for me,
it's always been fun for me to think about doing things, leading initiatives within a group. It's a lot less fun for me to think about it, doing it just by myself. So yeah, so I think early on, I just knew I loved doing things with people and I'm also an only child and a little bit of a bossy pants. So I think part of that was, well, if I'm gonna be part of the group, I might as well help direct the group. And I think that was always kind of a part of leadership journey. And I think...
I think you want to get into this a little bit later, but I think through some other personality testing and also through trial and error, I realized that one of my strengths is pulling out the best in people. Maximizer is a word that's been used for my personality type in the past. And so I think I can always see the potential in people and systems.
And so I think that's always been fun for me to have people around me and say, like, I don't think you know you can do this, but I think you can. And so.
Roger (08:11)
Yeah,
so I do want to talk about the evolution of like how you how that's evolved over time. But did you ever get to a point where you're like, I don't know what people see in me. I don't like why are people giving me a lot of ammo here? Why am I getting asked to?
Vince Burens (08:24)
Did I ever get to
a point? Yeah, like every day of my life. Yeah, I don't know that I ever got to the point. I think I always, you know, I think when you're younger and especially as a male and your frontal lobe isn't fully formed yet, you kind of, it's a little more ready fire aim anyway, at least with my personality type. So I think to a certain degree, I both led boldly and was hyper insecure at the exact same time.
Roger (08:29)
Ha
Vince Burens (08:54)
You know, I knew that I had this drive to achieve and move things forward. And at the same time, I was wondering, do people like me, am I doing this right? Am I loving people in the midst of it? Are people loving me in the midst of it? You know, trying probably rooting unintentionally, but later kind of realizing rooting my identity a little too deeply in other people's thoughts and opinions on my leadership.
So yeah, I was always and yeah, I think over time I'm now 50 and you know, still, there's certainly some of those insecurities that are in there but I think the gift of wisdom and age is that starts to start to whittle away a little bit. But certainly I, when I think of who I was in my 20s and 30s, which just massively leading strongly and massively insecure at the exact same time.
Roger (09:42)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which, incidentally, that is so common. I mean, it's not that's not unusual. think people resonate with that, that feeling, especially people who are identified, asked into leadership, given leadership at a young age like you're you're doing it. And the same time, you're like, I don't know why people are asking me to do this or why they're trusting me to do it.
So, I have a kind of perspective on how my clarity about who I am has evolved over the years. What was most helpful to you through the years? Have there been things that were really catalytic for you getting comfortable on your own, what I call leadership foundation, but kind of where you stand?
Vince Burens (10:22)
Yeah. Part of it for me was I think I have always been given and gifted older men in my life specifically who were willing to be the language I would use would be a mirror to me. So they would you know sometimes when we look at ourselves in a mirror it can be a little bit like a funhouse. You know you don't know if you're totally looking. Am I that big. You know you're kind of trying to figure it out. I think I had enough
Roger (10:42)
Always. Yes. Yep.
Vince Burens (10:48)
both peers, but also older men in my life who I trusted, who kind of would hold the mirror up to me and say, no, I don't know what you're seeing in the mirror, but let me just show you what I see. and I knew that they loved me and I knew that they were in it for me and my benefit not to break me. And so that was always, kind of figuring that out was through that feedback. I think it's difficult.
It's important to get the feedback of the people you're leading unquestionably. But it's also, it can be disorienting and distorting. It's not always the best view. It's good to know how people are experiencing you. But it's also good to get a broader perspective. And I think for me, when I think about, how did I really get a better sense of self? I don't know that I fully have a sense of who I am, but.
A lot of it was just those kinds of people holding mirrors up to me and saying, this is what I see you doing. Here's an area for growth. Here's where you're really killing it. And then leaning into that more as I went as a leader.
Roger (11:41)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So I've got I've got a couple of thoughts on on how that one might I like poetry. People may not know that, but I like poetry. So one of the of the one of my favorite poems is called Love After Love by Derek Walcott. And he talks about he talks about meeting ourselves again. For the first time, because we don't see ourselves very clearly in the mirror, he's talking about how
as we lose ourselves and we have to find ourselves again. And David Benner has a great book called The Gift of Being Yourself. And he talks about how the essential nature of having people reflect back to us who we are from their eyes and how they see us. But there's something really critical about who those people are. And it has to be people that we trust, that we know love us, that getting feedback from people that we don't.
Vince Burens (12:35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Roger (12:41)
trust or that we don't know they have our best interest at heart. There's always a little bit of a barrier. There's something that keeps us from believing what they say, good or bad. But when you have people around you who you trust, who you know love you, it becomes this kind of fuel, it becomes this kind of polish the mirror, let me see myself clearly. And you've had some great men in your life who have done that over the years. Bob Long being one
Vince Burens (12:49)
Yeah. Yeah.
Roger (13:08)
one of those folks, So having a mentor or having older folks kind of speak into your life and reflect back who you are, been helpful.
Talk a little about how you've, how do you view leadership differently now that you're on the wisdom side of life? You know, you've crossed over to from just, high achieving performer, who everyone's given leadership to, to now you're on the wisdom side. I think like where you're, don't necessarily buy into all the hype, but you're willing to be who God's created you to be. Like what's the...
Vince Burens (13:25)
Mm.
Roger (13:42)
What's your perspective now? How's it different?
Vince Burens (13:46)
Yeah, well, I turned 50 this year, as I referenced earlier. it's funny, it shouldn't sneak up on you. It's math. You know when you're turning 50. But I really felt like I'm good. And right around the time I turned 50, was like, I'm having existential crisis here a little bit. So I've been doing what I think a lot of people my age do is podcasting, reading, trying to understand what's going on here.
Part of that for me, which I know it is for many, is I've been sort of really inhaling a lot of Arthur Brooks stuff, who's a professor at Harvard, has the most popular class at Harvard about what brings happiness and joy in life. And he's done a ton of social research and psychological research on that kind of stuff. And one of the things he talks about, as you said, Rog is that movement from individual achievement to the language he uses is impact.
Roger (14:20)
Yes.
Vince Burens (14:41)
to use wisdom. It's similar. So and he talks about how the things we used to do as a young leader just don't work anymore. I've had a physical manifestation of this. know we also are other shared joy as we play golf. And over the last two years, I've played golf my whole life. It was one of the few things my dad and I bonded over. I was reasonably good at it, you know. ⁓ But now I stink.
Roger (14:41)
Yeah. Impact,
Very good at it, but yeah.
Vince Burens (15:06)
I absolutely stink. And part of it is, I've been raising kids and living life and working, so I'm not playing, I have not been playing a lot. I've been playing maybe five, seven, 10 times a summer. But I used to always be able to go back and be reasonably good, at least a bogey golfer, a little better, just without picking up a club. Now I look like a person that hits a ball off a tee like they've never swung a golf club before.
And I was playing with a good friend of mine actually on my birthday. He took me out to play on my birthday and he was like, you swing like you're 35, you know? And I actually had a herniated disc last year as well. So I didn't play golf at all last summer. And he was like, you know, you can tell it's in there, but like you got to learn how to hit a ball for a 50 year old dude, even a 50 year old dude who's in reasonably good shape and has played golf his whole life. But like you need a new swing, you know?
Roger (15:55)
Yeah.
Vince Burens (15:56)
And I've kind of taken that as a metaphor for life of like, I have noticed that certain things in my leadership journey that got me here, it's not my fastball anymore. It's not both just like physical energy, not that I'm slowing down too much, but just like the desire to just be on planes all the time, which I had when I was younger, be in every conversation, connect with everybody. I just, there's just, I'm...
I need to kind of bring that in a lot more than I used to. And so I think the way that I view leadership now, as you were saying, is really truly investing in others. the success of others really feels good to me now. Like it always felt pretty good to me as long as everybody recognized that like I was the guy behind it to a certain degree. ⁓ Now it feels really good.
Roger (16:42)
That's right,
Vince Burens (16:47)
like that energy to really invest in another person and see them succeed and have no acknowledgement or mention that I was even a part of it. That feels good to me now in a way it didn't before. I also think like the wisdom to step back and realize we don't have to reinvent everything and immediately. I'm a very pretty immediate personality type as well. And now I can see, I mean, when someone said to me once, you can't microwave wisdom.
It's a slow bake. And I guess for you southern folks, would be, you can't microwave brisket, right? You got to slow smoke it. there you go. you microwave you lot. I lost you. But so, know, I do think that there are slow baked things that are actually really good. And ⁓
Roger (17:23)
That's a great, great point. Now I'm with you.
Vince Burens (17:36)
I there's a real advantage in leaning into that much more than I think before it was I was looking for quicker wins all the time. And yeah, I think those are kind of the main leadership things I think I've learned. And I think to just be honest, to just be a little more what I just said, honest, to be a little more direct, but to do it with empathy, I think, like everyone in life, ⁓ I've suffered.
And one of the good gifts of suffering is that helps you develop empathy for others that are suffering. And I think I bring an empathy to my leadership that I didn't before to understand there's a lot more to this situation and person than is just presenting in this moment together. And how do I lean into that much more as opposed to, you know, a book I'm reading right now talks about the transition for people is
Roger (18:14)
Yeah. Yeah.
Vince Burens (18:23)
what the world tells us we should do is use people and love things and that a wisdom transition is actually loving people and using things. And I think younger leaders, it's easier to use people and love things or love achievement. And I think I'm in that sort of transitional period of really, really leaning into loving people and using things.
Roger (18:30)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
that's good.
So.
Speaking of like of of that moving from, kind of the speed of accomplishment to the to the slow wisdom of investing in people. I think a lot of leaders resist that because they think they're not going to accomplish as much or have a big of Splash.
Vince Burens (19:06)
you.
Roger (19:09)
I guess. you found yourself having like, how does that sit with you in terms of the level of impact you have?
Vince Burens (19:21)
Well, I think it's a great question. I think one of my wrestlings over the last five, seven years, and this is going to sound a little morbid, but it was actually very freeing, is to understand how fleeting life is. And, you know, like all of us will go through, you know, I've had some deaths in life over the last handful of years. Both of my parents have passed.
some really close relatives have passed. You reference Bob Long, a really deep mentor, father figure to me has passed. And one of the things that I said to my wife and she was like, this is really like your nugget of wisdom. I was like, when you die, it's It's over. It's done. And the reality is life moves on pretty quickly, especially the world we live in today.
Roger (20:00)
Fair.
Vince Burens (20:08)
which is much less communal and much more fast paced. It just moves quick. Even for the most significant human, the news cycle, and I mean that just in our lives, just moves to the next thing so quickly, which has been humbling, helpful, and freeing in that like, okay, now go do stuff, right?
It's going to be over quick and most of the things you do are going to be little blips on the radar. So like go for it, you know. And so, yeah, I think I'm even forgetting your question here a little bit, to be totally honest. I have just found the freedom in recognizing that there are certain things, from my personal perspective, you know,
I'm a person who tries to follow Jesus in his life. Maybe not everybody who listens to this is, but that's just the perspective I come from. So with that, I know there's only a handful of things that are eternal and most of the things I get to do here aren't, but they carry significant weight. So how do I lean into the weight of them, but not overweigh them? I think...
I think in my younger days, I probably put too much weight on the wrong things that were going to define me. And I think I worked in a world where it was easy to do that and others were doing the same. And I think I feel freedom now to understand like sometimes works just work and that's okay. It's not, doesn't have to be our life calling that completely defines us. Sometimes it is, most of the time it's not. It's showing up and doing Zoom calls and
Roger (21:22)
Yeah.
Vince Burens (21:43)
sending emails and making a couple of other phone calls and hopefully helping some people and watching an episode of Ted Lasso. That's what a day can be and it's okay. You didn't lose it because you did that. I don't know that I always had that perspective.
Roger (22:00)
Yeah. Well, good connection to Ted Lasso, by the way, is the I think of the scoreboard like, what's on the scoreboard? You know, what are what are the ways that we keep score of impact? And I would say. As you transition to the wisdom side of of life, because you've had losses, wins, you've had perspective, you had those things.
Vince Burens (22:03)
Thank you.
Roger (22:22)
what you had on the scoreboard and what you were counting as important, I think, changes. ⁓ And so you talk about people, loving people and leading through people and seeing them grow and develop as opposed to the accomplishment of notches on your belt.
Vince Burens (22:27)
yeah.
Roger (22:38)
One of the things I like to talk about with people is self-sabotage. So I love talking about how people get clarity on what they're great at. Like, how do you know what you're good at? So we've talked a little about getting reflection back from people. I don't really care much about weaknesses. We can talk about that if we want, but weaknesses to me are...
are something to either delegate or to develop, but they're not essential. What really is interesting to me is how people unconsciously or unknowingly, or sometimes even if they're aware of it, sabotage their own leadership impact and how everyone around them sees it.
Vince Burens (23:11)
Hmm.
Yeah. Everyone around them sees it.
Roger (23:15)
But everyone around us sees it.
But it exists. It's either not talked about, not welcomed, in other words, the person doesn't welcome feedback, but we all do it. Well, the more aware we are of it, the less we can do it. But I find that
is really interesting to talk about. does that resonate with you, that concept of seeing self-sabotage either in yourself or other leaders and how, how you address it, how you think about it?
Vince Burens (23:42)
Yeah, oh, 100%. Yeah, I mean, I can think of it in my own life, for sure, especially as a younger leader. And seeing it in other leaders, both in my previous work and my current work, you know, I have this interesting view now as a consultant of looking into a variety of colleges and nonprofit organizations, schools, and you can see great leadership and you see self-sabotaging leadership all the time. Yeah.
Roger (24:11)
Yeah,
yeah.
I guess my experience is that especially high achieving leaders their self-sabotage is tolerated.
through the years and it's more like passed from organization to organization but it's not interrupted. It's not called out maybe for a variety of reasons, but.
I know for me, I had very significant points where people were able to shed some light on some of that. You've experienced that a little bit in your life. What helped you see it? Or what do you think helps other people see those things and maybe address them, fine tune? What I call like
The self-sabotage erodes the foundation of our leadership and how do we pay attention to it and interrupt it or lessen it? What have you found to be helpful?
Vince Burens (25:00)
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, you know, unfortunately, I remember reading a study once in Harvard Business Review where they were talking about pain and pleasure motivation, that what motivates change in people. some people, it's pleasure. For some people, it's pain. It's, the different parts of the brain. And this study, I think that the stat that I remember is 82 percent of people are pain motivated and 18 percent are pleasure motivated.
Roger (25:10)
Mm.
Vince Burens (25:26)
So I'd love to tell you it's because of all the winsome successes that I've had and others have had is what helps me stop self-sabotage. But the reality is, if you play the numbers game, it's pain, right? It's pain that causes it. Because for most people, myself included, I'm a pain-motivated person. When I'm winning, when I'm experiencing pleasure, I rarely... I mean, you can get me to self-reflect a little bit, but at the end of the day, I'm like, hey, this is working.
Roger (25:36)
Yeah. Yeah.
Vince Burens (25:52)
⁓ I've really, you know, I was a soccer coach for over 25 years and so I love the art of coaching. And I've been fascinated if you paid attention at all to Kurt Signetti who's at Indiana University right now, who's completely flipped their college football program. I mean, Indiana University historically is a horrible college football program. And he's brought them to be, I think they're number two in the nation as we're doing today. And Signetti outside of being a Pittsburgher, which makes me like him more,
Roger (26:11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Vince Burens (26:19)
He is constantly, does not allow pleasure into the system in like a really good way. And from listening and reading to some of the things Nick Saban has said over the years, he was very good at like managing pleasure to the point that there was enough pain to get people to continue to self-analyze and keep working, which is a story for a different podcast. But I...
I've been fascinated by it. And I would say in my own life, yeah, I think what's caused me to move on or be aware of my self-sabotage has been pain, has been failure, has been negative feedback, has been people pleasing. I would say my own personal journey has been trying to please too many people at once. And in doing that, not making hard decisions that needed to be made.
So what causes that for me, it's an identity issue, Like, can I really fully see myself for who I am and take comfort and security in that? Or do I need you to tell it to me in a way that helps me, right? And I think my journey is that I don't self-sabotage in that way anymore, but I would say certainly as a younger leader,
Roger (27:14)
Yeah.
Vince Burens (27:33)
you know, that that was certainly self-sabotaging. You know, for other leaders I've seen, you know, I think I think the term narcissism gets overused in our culture in the same way that, you know, toxic culture gets overused, though those there are narcissists and there are toxic cultures in the world for sure. I think like everything it's like somebody does something wrong. It's like it's a toxic culture. He's a narcissist. And it's like, well, I mean, maybe, but probably not. But I do think sometimes
Roger (27:46)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.
Yeah.
Vince Burens (28:03)
that people are so deeply broken that they have to put up a shield around themselves, which says, I can't hear the feedback. Because I always think, I already think so poorly of myself, even though it wouldn't be shown that way. If I let any more info come in, it could be crushing. So I won't do it, which means I won't be self-aware, which in turn means I constantly self-sabotage.
Roger (28:13)
Yeah.
Yeah, I totally agree. think, like, to me, the fascinating thing that I've come to realize over last several years is that when we're early on in our career, we get a lot of feedback. You get a lot of feedback because individual contributor kind of leading at a low level in the organization, not playing with a lot of live ammo, but you're getting there.
You get a lot of feedback. As you get to more senior and senior leadership, it's like the feedback gets dialed down. You don't get as much helpful, useful feedback. You may get some shots across the bow every once in while from someone that you may admit. But useful feedback, not about results. What I find is that most people in senior leadership position, their feedback is limited to the results of the organization.
Vince Burens (29:03)
Mm-hmm.
Roger (29:22)
It's not about how you got those results. what made you successful? You need to know that so you can double down on it. You need to really lean into that. But instead it becomes about like we limit it to the scoreboard of like what the organization accomplished. And so the higher you get in organization, the actual less feedback you get. So the higher the stakes, the less information you have.
And, you know, certainly people I think are feel feel poorly about themselves and don't want to invite it in. But so I find that to be really interesting is that that senior leaders get less probably because they invite less. The structure isn't set up for someone to force it on them. And so they invite less coupled with what you said about like, if I don't want the feedback, I'm not going hear it.
whatever it is, the guardedness or whatever. so the idea of connecting that to pain. I think most people think feedback is pain. Like it's a it's a painful experience. Like we've repeatedly used feedback as a weapon or it's a painful kind of kind of thing. Have you ever seen feedback?
be not painful.
Vince Burens (30:33)
I've seen people try to frame it as not painful. I think, you know, I've been in, you know, in you and I experiences together, there were certain systems when you and I worked together previously, where people would frame it as they were trying to be constructive. But I think I look back on those experiences and I realized, this was people using a system to try to manipulate people into a particular kind of sort of archetype of a leader.
Roger (30:37)
Ha
Vince Burens (31:01)
that if you weren't it, they were trying to shape you into it. And I think I've seen a lot of that over the years in a lot of different organizations. So yeah, I do think that unfortunately, one of the reasons why senior leaders don't get a lot of feedback is because people want to weaponize that feedback as opposed to really saying like, no, I love this person. I want to see them thrive. I want to see them succeed. I really just feel like if they
Roger (31:28)
Yeah.
Vince Burens (31:30)
they could grow in this area, man, they'd just be killing it. It's more of a like, I don't think well of you and this is my opportunity vent. Yeah. I would say, if you don't mind me saying, like one of the things that I would say though is I do think in the for-profit world, I would agree with everything you said about like leaders not getting the feedback and
Roger (31:37)
Yeah, this I can get the megaphone out now because I have this opportunity and.
Vince Burens (31:54)
maybe for a variety of reasons that being true, I certainly see that. I would say in the social sector, because of the age we're in, I think a lot of people now get feedback in the social sector. I would define that a little more broadly, not just a nonprofit. Like, go talk to your local high school principal and say, do you feel like you're in a feedback vacuum? You know, I mean, I think they'd be like, no, like I only get feedback. I mean, literally my wife and I, so we have two daughters, our one daughter is a senior in college, the other one's senior in high school.
Roger (32:13)
f-
Yeah.
Vince Burens (32:23)
We've had a great experience at the local public high school where we live. And we went in for my daughter's beginning of the year feedback. And at the school we are at and the system she's in, they bring in all the teachers and the principal sits in on it. And the principal is a woman, military vet, PhD, super accomplished, very driven. We think the world of her. And at the end, as we wrapping up, were like, is there anything else you would want? And my wife and I expressed to the principal at the high school of
what a gift it's been for our kids to go to this high school. And we really appreciate her leadership. The woman started crying. I mean, it's a tough woman. And she starts crying. part of it is all she gets is negative feedback. And I would say, go ask your local pastor. Go ask your local chemistry teacher. Go ask the local food shelter guy. They're only getting negative feedback. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Roger (32:58)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The crossing guard, the referee at the youth sports game.
So I think that so this fascinating. we'll go. This will be the end of podcast part one. We'll do a part part two. But the closing thought here on that, and I want to pick this back up, is this idea of we call that feedback.
And so feedback is this broad umbrella term that we talk about. Like there's like our principal gets feedback. And I would say static. There's a difference between the static and The volume of noise and a very, very different experience that you have from we talked about when there's this intentionality of someone, I love you.
I want the best for you. I'm going to give you well-rounded perspective that's going to breathe life into you and help you really understand what you do that makes you such a great leader. And I would say a lot of the feedback in our organization or in our culture has nothing to do with that. It's not like, man, here's what you do great. Like you're really good at doing this and that. you know, it's all like,
It's all the the critique you can put out there because we're we're now in this world where social media and and and unfortunately, I think COVID kind of fueled it. it's like you can say whatever you want to anybody. but I would say like what I want to do is redeem that word, redeem that process a little bit to help to help leaders instead of it being something that's given
two is it's something we control and go get. It's something that we can control very proactively, but that's for number two. but we'll come back for number two. We'll talk about, let's talk about how soccer translates. How do we think about leadership from a sports perspective? And I do want to dig into what you do specifically for-profit, nonprofit, you know, and how you help organizations.
thrive both in leadership and fundraising. I think there's some interesting topics there we'll talk about in number two.
Vince Burens (35:20)
Great. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
Roger (35:21)
All right.
Thanks, Vince. Appreciate it. That's a wrap on part one, and we'll do part two a little later. Thanks.
Vince Burens (35:28)
Awesome.
Thanks, Rog